### Conversations

Should anybody's opinion be ignored?

Yes. Lots of inertia. It needs to be broken up into granular sandy structure to lose it

--skihappy

This idea is subtle but our society is full of failure - failure of students at school, failure of businesses, failure of marriages, failure in terms of health problems such as mental illness.

We don't set people up to succeed. We don't train people to be mini CEOs at school to start a business. We fill their heads with barely connected facts - that someone designed in a poorly constructed curriculum which is not fundamental but arbitrary.

Graduates come out of school into minimum wage jobs - not high paid jobs. They have learned rarely practical theoretical made up nonsense in psychology or sociology - it's a far cry from mathematics, physics or computer science.

Maybe follow up on this could help?

1. assume "Nothingness"
2. conclude "Equidistance"
3. see balls, cause equidistant defines them.
4. see the Pi and the universal Turing machines. :)

--Mindey

Knowing that green stars can't exist naturally in the Universe, we could purposefully make a green star (link leads to a video answering why green stars can't exist) with a green laser to appear green to someone viewing MilkyWay galaxy from Andromeda ;) On the other hand, perhaps the fact that we and life on Earth primarily sees in the visual spectrum is quite random, -- who out there would be looking specifically for stars with 520 or 532 nm wavelength light?

--Mindey

I agree land is the problem. It's too expensive and the profit motive has superseded every other use of land. Even if something is socially profitable, the money incentive comes first.

Sheltering people should be a society wide imperative of a loving community or society. But it isn't. Profit is.

What we really need a s land, to form new communes, nurturing better culture. Building brand new is much easier then fixing the old. We got plenty of tech but land is always the biggest problem. Simply, all land been horded up by just a few people, and that's the root cause of all the misery. The only way it can be helped is by more sharing, by spreading land a little wider. I hope wealth generated on Blockchain can be used for that, that's my hope.

--skihappy

I think it's very simple and basic. Just make it easy for people to form and maintain local communities. The rest will fall in place. Community is a basic human need. a healthy local community will take care of all other human needs, like food and shelter. Let's get to the basics. That's what our tech should facilitate, the simplicity and f human existence, thru self sufficient communities. Also, I really object to calling most people stupid and selfish. When you do, that's what you gonna get. They are all at the same time, but all wanna be on the good side, side of community. That's just wired into us. We survive by clinging together. Our brains develop to live in peace with each other. Simply, if you succeed in providing basic needs from outside the community, you will fail , for what's the point of having the community. So we all gonna be lonely and miserable, just like now. We already have it.

--skihappy

Agree, [尹与及], and there's also a saying, "You get what you reward for," which is statistically true, so the question could be raised, -- how to evolve the features that are the best of human values. The technical research (with good animated simulations) into the behaviors that evolve can be performed, and is relevant to this category.

--Mindey

I agree with the concept that any body or any thing that was necessary for you to succeed should be rewarded a portion of the profits.

We should reward those that are right and those that are necessary. So this means any worker that contributes to you or any service or product on the way that enhanced your output.

I called this idea chain of necessity - that taxi driver that takes you to a job interview or to a business meeting is someone who chose you over someone else. He deserves something extra for his work and contributing toward your success.

Every worker in getting your product or service out the door should agree with his cut of the profits.

https://0oo.li/method/59001/chain-of-necessity-or-chain-of-distribution#1630399963

One idea I had that we should invest in the success ingredients of individuals and share their outputs. I call this baby citizen investment.

https://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Baby_20citizen_20investment

I think the finance industry is corrupt, bloated and not very innovative. It's very self serving and provides very little toward society. The stock market does not reflect on the health of the economy.

However index funds reveal a very important and useful idea of distributing your bets across everybody for success. We should do that with people and projects. Government and other people have a stake in your success and they also contribute to your success. Taxation can be just another chain or necessity or claim on your success.

If it weren't for your government funded education, you probably wouldn't have been able to read and write unless your parents taught you. So you owe the government something for the money the government spent on you.

Government spending should be a bit like index fund investment. Invest in lots of people and things and hope that some items grow more than others. Government should invest more in successful students at school. Doing well should unlock more investment in you because you're a winner.

I received a scholarship, bursary and grant when I applied for university because of my grades and writing quality when I applied to my department.

If I give someone and idea they wouldn't have originally had then I deserve some profit from the ultimate result.

The same way that Jeff Bezos parents are probably the true cause of Amazon's success because they gave him \$245,000 to start up.

The VC model in society is truly messed up. The relationship between a investor and founder is adverserial and the investors try to remove the founder ASAP by diluting the shares and equity of the founder. They try get as much equity as possible for the least investment. They're greedy and over state their importance in what makes a successful company.

This post covers how bad it can be

// People don't like giving up their surpluses to other people for free. //

It's the zero sum mentality, and lack of tracking systems that would give them credit feedback systems for what they did. Imagine if every donation and giving, that every read of your idea and every fetch of data from your repository was tracked by you, and you could connect someone's super-duper startup with the ideas that the person had read from your blog or your repository, making it possible to get back the credit from that startup, and every other success, that you had inspired.

I think the optionality for enforcement of traceability of the transfers of assets copies of information by the source of assets and information, can reduce the "zero sum" calculation, because suddenly people would think long-term about what they share and what they read. Howevertheless, anonymous information exchange markets will exist regardless of such tracking, a bit like pirated data stripped of identifiers, even with something like New IP. However, it certainly has side effects leading to surveillance society and erosion of privacy.

I think, just the actual presence of easy tools and optionality for systems to demand read receipts and fetch histories with anonymous identities that care about their track records (WoT) would create a new game, that people concerned about the future credit could opt to use, and that possibly may lead to new social norms.

--Mindey

People don't like giving up their surpluses to other people for free. People feel that there is a free loader problem in society. You 'have to earn your living'. I think it's wrong and incredibly short sighted. Theres this prevailing mainstream opinion 'i have got mine, fuck everybody else'.

People deliberately vote to remove benefits from other, less fortunate citizens. That's how terrible human nature is.

In my email based social network I defined lots of schemas upfront. To handle shares of various things.

I wrote example XMLs of each message. But didn't use the examples after writing them.

The schema registry could be ran in high availability mode.

orderData = db.get_order(order_id)

context.put("order", order_data)

context.put("user_id", user_id)

message = context.render("new-order-message")

Where new-order-message is looked up in the schema registry to see what data it contains

The registry decides what data in context or inside context subobjects appears in the message payload when rendered.

Many services pass on messages or store data from other services within the payload. Sometimes the service in question doesn't care about particular fields particularly but another service might further down the chain.

For example in event driven microservice architecture I have used we had MongoDB store cached payload of data from a previous service to preclude having every service thereafter fetching it. Also it keeps data in sync.

Schemas are used in RabbitMQ systems but are often managed in an ad hoc way. That is you have a Java class in each microservice of the network of microservices that you have to keep in sync. It's a nightmare.

Versioning manually is a solution I just think it could be done automatically. Press a new version button in a schema management UI and add the new fields. And tick check boxes where the field applies for each message kind.

If we want autonomous self managed organisations like DAOs there will need to be some agreement on the protocol format.

For me, it looked like some "docker registry" (~"schema registry"). So, I asked a friend specialized in devops to comment on this. His thoughts were:

"Makes sense, however a db or files, another state feature are supposed to have only owner, if various services use 1 db, it means you will loose consistency. In terms of schema yes, it makes sense. However owner of service use different versions for API. Once you release some new changes on API, you have to increase API version, like /api/v2/blabla.I think Protobuf or graphql can solve this problem partly."

Me: "So, you mean, a point could be made, that protocol buffers, and API versioning make the central management of messaging schemas not necessary?"

Him: "All modern API providers use versioning... Ok, field appears automatically, but if application is not aware what it is, the field is unuseful."

// Someone can move a piece of context to the protocol schema centrally. So adding a new column to a database or to a protocol message is as simple as changing it in one place.

Personally, I like the idea of developing schemas of data independently of microservices, because then everyone can be part of the development of ontological model of the system, which never ends with just one microservice.

--Mindey

You can't currently rent a house long term through an app.

I think you should be able to buy a house like buying milk at a grocery store.

What's new in this idea? The "no end date", the "auto-concierge", what else?

I prefer a world without buildings, just living in "hivecells" directly on planets. Clothes should be made convenient and safe enough to replace housing.

--Mindey

I definitely prefer the nomad lifestyle. I used to be a consultant and travelled all the time in the UK and Ireland. I was always in a hotel and in a different city every 9 months.

I rented a flat and bought an expensive computer and coffee machine - now I feel restricted where I can be. I have to stay in one place. So I'm thinking of moving again and sending away my computer and coffee machine to some central location such as my family home and use my nice computer as a server.

IT contracts can cost millions of £££ for development of cloud systems.

If enough people on Infinity family congregated we could do bids on public tendor for information systems.

I agree, but I think it's more of a cultural issue rather then technical, as most of the problems worth solving. I picture a society of semi nomads, freely moving thru the land held in common, joining many available communities, where everyone is accepted, learning at each place, as well as teaching. Kinda like a human flux thru a more stable matrix of community nodes. I imagine life as a fun road trip, in anticipation of new friends and new experiences, travelling light, worry free. That's what freedom is to me. But such a vision would take a cultural shift. As of now, yeah, we can create an accommodation sharing app, there are already many, like time shares. So, of you have lots of money, we can make moving even more convenient. Unfortunately most people are bound stationary by that necessity of making money. We are all frozen into a rigid social structure. There's no single app that can change this. It's a generational change needing to happen. What's gonna change it is building those communes, one by one, nurturing the culture of sharing, community living and openness. Then, those communes attract by their success, more get started, they get interconnected helping each other. A new economy gets born. That's what we need to help to happen with our apps. We need to provide organizational tools to make forming such communes easier. It's very hard right now. Many are trying, and everyone is groping in the dark.

--skihappy

Well, triples are redundant, because tuples are enough: (a, b, c) = ((a, b), (b, c)) (the point (video) I made in an e-mail to [Telmo]).

Thus, we can think of triple stores as just semantic indices. Indices speed up querying, yes, but but otherwise, they are redundant. When it comes to semantic indexing, then, it would make sense to make such said "triples" not just between more popular graph nodes, but hypergraph nodes as well (doing the power-set indexing would likely exhaust computational resources in most cases).

Is there at all such concept of "semantic indexing" in the literature? It seems nobody calls "making triple stores" for a database -- "semantic indexing".

--Mindey

Also that example was an inferred rule. The age less than 25 people use gmail is something that is learnt by the database based on the data.

It's a correlation of every piece of data with every other piece of data. Could be implemented with a simple loop and correlation function

The problem with computed properties in programming language - outside the database is that they're not very efficient. You would need truth maintenance which can be expensive if naively implemented.

Blazegraph (since acquired by Amazon) and Jena Fuseki are triple stores have truth maintenance features.

Don't discount what triple stores bring to the table.

If a database could have virtual properties that were implemented inside the database - also updated on any insert or changing data - then yes it could be efficient.

Isn't it just computed (virtual) properties to "sets of objects interlinked by desired properties" (a combined virtual object)?

For an example of computed properties, we can think of

"if someone is aged under 25 they only use Gmail as their mail provider based on database data"

as a single computed boolean property, namely Object.use_only_gmail(age): age < 25 => True ? False, to the objects that have "age" property. An implication can be viewed as just a property computation. The confidence level can be described, too, by simply computing the property, and observing that, in actuality this statement covers just 95% of cases.

For an example of a combined virtual objects, consider the below query:

"Search for the cases, where collocation of exactly 2 objects aged above 25 had spawned 2 living objects aged below 1 during a period of less than 1 day."

Assuming that the occurrences of "spawning 2 objects" and "collocation" is not something that the database naturally tracks, computing such property would involve creating "combined virtual object" (say, an occurrence where graph pattern of spanning objects with collocation is observed), and then computing the boolean property to such virtual objects, answering that exactly 2 objects were spawned.

I don't see why we'd need triplets stores anymore: it's all more naturally doable with just computed properties and their patterns specified by queries. A pattern is just a "combined virtual object", so, a query is just a construction of a "template virtual object" (in fact, I've explained that in "purposefulness" section about desired data properties, when supplemented with metaformat). This would enable to query for any patterns imaginable.

--Mindey

I have an idea in my startups list called manufacture app.

The idea being is you could request a phone with certain specs or laptop. Upload PCB designs and 3d models and get it manufactured.

I have linked it.

Your idea addresser app made me think of this idea - I would like the key interface with my computer to be search.

Search someone's name, email text, file text - anything and results should show up. I should be able to provide a complex query about attributes of the solution I want and find them. Like a join but a converging function of multiple variables.

Like What If.

I don't know how reasoning engines work but I think it's a replicated application of modus ponens

It would be nice if you had one built into a database or a prolog engine built into a database. You could generate facts like if someone is aged under 25 they only use Gmail as their mail provider based on database data.

If computers used a standard ontology of relationships as proposed on the Smart ontologies page, we could store everything on the screen and abstract things not on the acreen in a data structure that could be used to support Window merge.

Would be nice to have an ontology for computers and relationships between files, processes, threads, containers, permissions etc

Then we would have a simple data structure for everything that wasn't so implementation defined.

Reasoning on ontologies is a special case of querying of datasets, and most databases are just specialized ontologies, optimized for certain types of queries. Some databases, like triple-stores, may be optimized or logical inferences.

You're correctly noticing that Infinity family ontology is pragmatic from the business sense. In fact, I had worked on Odoo (previously OpenERP), which is a Wordpress-like framework for enterprises to run, and I thought (back in 2010) -- that AI-augmented corporations are already happening, so, we need a system that would enable them to be transparent with the society, and, since companies are just sums of people, I thought, there must exist common denominator between how individuals, companies, and even governments operate, and in fact, the Infinity family ontology is an attempt at arriving to that common denominator from the first principles, described in the paper on the equation model. A more concrete version of that, is the NRV (network resource vocabulary), the idea of which is to introduce something like HTTP response code numbers to responses, but rather, semantic codes to data objects.

In theory then, to make systems understandable, we can go around all the systems (such as each app) and data packets (such as the internet traffic), and project them in the human semantic space, -- by having such codes attached to their tables, requests and responses -- make all systems understood to humans, and even make them mathematically tractable.

--Mindey

When you think about it though, browser is just a UI Protocol, defined by W3C, and the main feature is not the browser, but the address field! Your idea has inspired a related idea of Addresser App.

--Mindey

I envision this collective becoming an Ecosystem of Organisations mentioned by [malü].

Synthesing as I type this:

As a collective we unite professionals and businesses who want to help people in the world to realise true potentials through collaborative creativity.

Our mission could be to advance human development tools and promote symbiotic creativity as a process for human development.

Human development includes all aspects of personal growth, from nutrition to exercise, biohacking, spirituality, creativity as a mental activity, ... and the latest research done on the link of gut health and mental health, the benefits of social activities for wellbeing and longevity, and more. To sum up, seeing creativity as a healthy output out of human development activities (input).

Our core activity could be to facilitate knowledge exchange between members through hands-on co-creation experiences.

We could operate as a volunteer run membership based organisation (like various nonprofit organisations do, e.g.JCI, Toastmasters, Open Knowledge Foundation, etc). The difference is, in SYMBES our members come together online to exchange the latest tools for human development and to advance their creative abilities. This happens when members attend small "co-creation experiences" online.

This is a draft obviously! Editions welcome.

--Ruta

A friend of mine is working on Cohado Philosophy and a game based on that, where it's said that "one cannot see themselves and a need a mirror". So this makes me think how important is to have mirrors-collaborators in the journey of creativity.

--Ruta

I realised a need to merge 2 of our projects under a higher level project, because with my collaborator [malü] we're working on both of our projects simultaneously - and our efforts cannot be separated, almost symbiotically! so it makes sense to rename this project from "KOKONO" to "SYMBÉS" and such to express an idea of pursuing a higher level goal together than our individual projects do. this simplification makes it easy to evolve together and share our progress.

do we still need individual project pages for results declarations? I'm not sure!

--Ruta

Lately, I use an example of "tidying the house" as a metaphor of how to tidy one's mind and put thoughts into drawers, where together they become more clear (synthesise) and "make the point".

--Ruta

// They say -- bring the right people in the right place, and they will create magic.

I wonder about solo imagination. How can imagination happen on our own? What stimuli is needed to dive inward and start questioning and exploring? Because a human is a living system too, interacting with one's thoughts and environment all the time already (even without a group of people).

// "imagine" part -- is the one that is highly-dependent on the initial conditions (the original experience and unique combination with environment) of that entity (a pseudo-random process) that the imaginator is.

Yes sure. "Know yourself" is still true. Diving into one's personal journey to resolve past challenges can spark imagination. Reconnecting with one's roots to spark fruits.

With my work, I also notice that Synthesis and Prototyping is hard and new for people who dont work in technology or design sectors. Addressing these steps (how to teach these skills) is equally important as imagination training.

The reason I shared this puzzle id because I do work in education/learning facilitation. And so I'm interested to discuss Examples of such "embodied imagination training" and make it better - i.e. discuss how people who also are interested in human development or the activity of nurturing imaginators (teaching, coaching, consulting, knowledge transfer, development, etc) do it or would like to do the activity of nurture imaginators, and then seeing if there are some general patterns, that can be used as a Imagination as a process template that can be explained and shared with people. There is a "lean canvas" template for business planning rapidly. I'm interested in "dream worlds and prototype" template. This way people who even dont have access to consultants, could learn to imagine dream worlds and make it a reality.

This is important (for me) when thinking about inequality and poverty in the world. My assumption is, if more people learn to imagine dream worlds and create, the world would lift up in many places at once.

--Ruta

Anyone knows anything about Hydrogen?

--Ruta

What would be cool and useful - making a UI sketch on Figma and it appears on one of Infinity websites.

Having a different user interface for a different Infinity website would help more people benefit from the system - some Infinity websites could work as innovation forums, while others as online schools, freelancer marketplaces, open R&D labs, etc.

I use WordPress with Elementor (and Woocommerce) for client work, and I love the idea of how one technology can look so different depending on needs. It would be cool and useful if Infinity heads this direction - "customise the look and features based on needs"

--Ruta

I want something that unlocks the databases around the world and makes the information cross referencable or searchable.

Unfortunately every REST API is slightly different and doesn't provide a standardised sorting mechanism or query mechanism.

I want GUIs frameworks to auto paginate - I want to point a GUI at a trillion records and have it scale seamlessly loading only what can be displayed or perused by a human at human scale. It would keep only what needs to be in memory in memory. And cache as needed.

I want general purpose object editor that can be used for file management, ideas, categories, projects, bank accounts, bill of materials, shopping, task management, business etc.

Everyone's self-hosting protocols for sharing purposeful (1) thinking, (2) making, (3) sharing (trading).

Protocols that make it easy for systems and people to mutually understand and cooperate.

The (1), (2), (3) are rather abstract things, each of them would imply elaboration on them.

This site's software itself is an attempt to explore what's required for this to work, and, perhaps decentralized datasets on a user-seeded database. On the other hand, I'm also quite excited about the "metadrive" -- or software that just makes it easy to drive and cooperate driving of all systems, which would basically be a "universal peer" that can talk in all protocols, because the web is already decentralized, it's just that systems are not sufficiently interoperable.

--Mindey

Could this be used not just for food, but also for arbitrary deliveries. Sounds a bit like mailbox 2.0.

--Mindey

We could try to quickly cook up an initial prototype of what you're proposing by making a browser extension, because browser extensions can communicate with an HTTP service running on localhost. So, if you run an application installer as a daemon that listens for commands from browser extension, then an app like Infinity could ask it to install a yaml spec. I think it's worth trying out, and thinking of security later.

--Mindey

I could designate myself a communist and then move to an area where other communists are.

We could agree to share our production as we own the means of production.

It doesn't require anybody coerce anybody else. Everybody self designates. Everybody gets what they want.

I don't think the browser would ever do it. It would have to be a special application browser or an app that registers as a handler in a browser.

I think software installation is antiquated and legacy. it's just not necessary for it to be an explicit step.

We would have a separate application that understands application manifests and installation instructions I call it magic app because it doesn't exist.

Magicapp://infinityfamily/fh47fhr4838

Security is the disadvantage of this concept. I just like the idea of clicking a link, saying yes, then browsing into the software fully installed. Magic app would show a dialog perhaps a warning that you are installing native software.

No FTPing files, running .exes, running apt get nginx php-fpm, ./configure && make && make install, npm run server, apt-get install postgresql-12

I would like a friendly pretty GUI of the compilation process. Perhaps showing a spinner and showing what file is being compiled.

It could do something smart like run Docker containers for some isolation security.

Flatpak and Canonical snaps try solve application packaging. JuJu tries to solve software configuration - I recommend giving it a look.

Do you mean that if an app has a server component, then we could simply give a browser the permissions to install it without asking? Sounds like a security risk, unless it gets installed into an isolted environment, like docker. However, that then sounds like a space and memory hog. Giving browser permissions to install executables on localhost would require some security engineering, but in general, I see this idea as actually better than trying to virtualize everything on a browser. [+]

--Mindey

I really like the idea of local-firstness...

--Mindey

There is a related (but not exactly the same) concept of "offline-first" software. I guess, the difference is in the software shipping mode, in that local-first has to be shipped as OS packages or source code, whereas the term "offline-first" is often used to mean the web-apps, meaning, shipped by opening a website (which is a bit oxymoronic).